After being flabbergasted by the tourism in UK, Sanjeev Sardesai returned to his hometown only to promote tourism and heritage for free!
He worked for years and climbed the corporate ladder from being a bookshop assistant to a group General Manager looking after three resorts. Eventually he left it all to start his own venture Hands-On-Historians! Find out how Sanjeev is preserving and promoting the intangible heritage! Are casinos legal in Goan waters? Is Goa ready for hinterland tourism?
Tune in to find out!
Travel tip: If you visit Goa in the month of May, don’t forget to witness the fire festival were you’ll see locals walk on burning embers!
Produced by Aishwarya Javalgekar
Sound edit by Kshitij Jadhav
Brought to you by Bound, a company that helps you grow through stories. Follow us @boundindia on all social platforms for updates on this podcast or take a look at their other podcasts.
Hosted by Clyde D’Souza. He is a creative director who has worked in TV, print, and digital. His book Susegad: The Goan Art Of Contentment captures Goa through conversations, memories, stories, recipes and much more. He lives between Mumbai and Goa and lives the Susegad lifestyle every day! Follow him on Instagram @clydedsouzaauthor.
After being flabbergasted by the tourism in UK, Sanjeev Sardesai returned to his hometown only to promote tourism and heritage for free!
He worked for years and climbed the corporate ladder from being a bookshop assistant to a group General Manager looking after three resorts. Eventually he left it all to start his own venture Hands-On-Historians! Find out how Sanjeev is preserving and promoting the intangible heritage! Are casinos legal in Goan waters? Is Goa ready for hinterland tourism?
Tune in to find out!
Travel tip: If you visit Goa in the month of May, don’t forget to witness the fire festival were you’ll see locals walk on burning embers!
Produced by Aishwarya Javalgekar
Sound edit by Kshitij Jadhav
Brought to you by Bound, a company that helps you grow through stories. Follow us @boundindia on all social platforms for updates on this podcast or take a look at their other podcasts.
Hosted by Clyde D’Souza. He is a creative director who has worked in TV, print, and digital. His book Susegad: The Goan Art Of Contentment captures Goa through conversations, memories, stories, recipes and much more. He lives between Mumbai and Goa and lives the Susegad lifestyle every day! Follow him on Instagram @clydedsouzaauthor.
Clyde D'Souza 00:09
This is Sue Seagal stories from guava. I cried de Souza take you deep into glob beyond the beaches and help you live and love the SUSE God lifestyle, no matter where you are. My guest today shows his boundless love for Guan not merely with his words, but a stylus actions. He's a heritage promoter, and a reluctant I would say, but very, very renowned historian. He has been on GWAS Tourism Board committee, he is the host of my goal. And he has founded hands on historians, which aims to enlighten people on GWAS rich heritage and history. And that to all free of cost. Welcome, Mr. Sanjeev says the site it's my honor, honestly, and a privilege for you to be on my podcast. And thank you so much for being on cigar stories from Google podcast.
01:01
Thank you so much. Thank you for hosting me today on your wonderful show.
Clyde D'Souza 01:06
Yeah, I'm really happy that you made it. And you just mentioned to me that I think you had an appointment with the governor of Guam. That was amazing. You know, you made it in spite of all of that. Okay, so Mr. Sanjeev, you have mentioned that, you know, 18 generations of your family have lived in the geographical location that we now know and love as go up? Yes. Can you tell me where in GWA are you from, and maybe talk a little bit about your surroundings,
01:29
definitely. In fact, if we talk about the origin of my family, that is the stock of my family, we are origin. We have had the privilege of being the administrators for the adult Chai regime that was there. And the title that we have the survey site, decides we're basically administrators looking after the land of the shop. And then the head of those decides a survey site, that was a title that was given to us, we are looking down not at 18. But now recently, we have had additions and it has gone to 20 generations.
Clyde D'Souza 02:09
Well congratulations and, and you are still personally doing a lot.
02:16
Though my family has been here for the last 20 generations, I do not qualify to be called a bone. The point is, we have to live ourselves as a go on. We have to love our go on as we go on. And that's how, you know, I got this feeling of trying to understand my land and my people and trying to bring it on a platform that is going to give it its due.
Clyde D'Souza 02:43
Right. So it was basically a personal journey and discovery of your own love for the land.
02:49
Absolutely. But, you know, going back a little bit, I joined the hotel industry in the year 1982. And I happened to spend around 21 years in this industry rising from a bookshop assistant to a group General Manager looking after three resorts. But then something happened which led me into this heritage, I got an opportunity to go for the world travel Mart in UK in 1995. And when we landed there, and we saw what tourism was translated by 80 different countries, I realized that there was no tourism in Guam. And it was at that time that I took a decision in 1995 that I need to leave this industry called as the tourism industry. And first understand for myself what is going on? Because the people who came to booyah did not come. Because they had money they wanted to come. But go was an attraction for them go out was a magnet for them go offer them something which we have all been leaving ourselves. But we never understood what was going on. And then when I came here, and I started going around understanding or understanding the culture of Goa, understanding the festivities of God, the tangible and intangible heritage of God, I realized that boy is so beautiful,
Clyde D'Souza 04:14
correct? Yeah, you're absolutely right. And I'm glad that you you know, you gave this nice preface before we got into everything that we want to talk about. And that is something that also struck me when you know, at a seminar at the Museum of Christian art, which you gave which you were at you you said this statement, which is that there is no tourism and go Ah, yes, and that is a very shocking statement to be said. And it's a beautiful statement because it's very true for someone who has now been doing this for so many decades. Can you tell us what do you think is the difference between history and heritage?
04:46
Now, whenever I try to identify myself, I always say that I am not a historian. I am a heritage promoter. Now when I look at history as such, history is academic Apart where there is documentation required for trying to preserve the past and the happenings of the past, history is made by people history made by events, but that is reference purpose that is academic purpose. Now, when we talk of heritage, there is a clear cut definition that yes, there is tangible heritage means something that we can go and touch something that we can go and see like the church is the temple, the mosque, the ruins, so many things that are there. And then we have got the intangible heritage intangible heritage is the languages that we speak regionally, the methodology of how we do our farming, the methods of how we do our cooking is unique to the world, that is intangible heritage, right. So until and unless I do not recognize, identify or be one with what I see in front of me, then I cannot attach history to it correct? Uh, yeah, you know, if I see a church now, let us say I go to old war in our world heritage sites, some of the most beautiful churches we find over there. I look at a church and I say, Oh, this is the circuit Israel, dedicated to St. Catherine. Now, the history comes into the picture here, I have shown them the different beautiful assets that are the architectural features everything that is heritage, that is what people would like to see. Right. But then I have to also tell them, how did these serve Catherdral come to be from a small chapel of St. Catherine that was built on 25th November 15 10, by a functional Volker, it became a cathedral and those are all history, right? So when I have to refer to something I look at that part as history, but heritage is something that I can present to a person like you or person like who comes here as a tourist or anyone who asked me and that I have to relate to something that they can see something that he can touch that for me is heritage.
Clyde D'Souza 07:02
History is like the anchor right that that is there and heritage is kind of linked to the Rankin, you have to show the connect the dots between a heritage and the history. So heritage is what could exist now and it's connected to are the events that happened in the past. I think that is something that you do wonderfully, really wonderfully on your show omega, which I think now has crossed 250 episodes if I'm not mistaken.
07:26
Yeah, total about 208 I want another series also, it is called Go Go on No, go.
Clyde D'Souza 07:32
Yes, I know. I know. I've seen that. And I think you've covered everything from trees, to archaeological treasures and Konkona. So can you you know, if you can just quickly tell me about some of the most startling things that you yourself have discovered about Korean heritage, which you know, even blew your mind away.
07:50
Now, I'll just give one example, one aspect of our festivities that you know, we celebrate as festivals in in Goa, whether they are celebrated by the Hindu community, whether they are celebrated by the Catholic community or whether they are celebrated by any other community that we have, all these festivities are related to Mother Nature. Now, when I say that they have got attachment to some religious body, like there is a festival called a shinny ouzo, I'm sure that most of the people in Goa may not have even heard the name of this festival. But in this festival, what really shocked me was here was a temple in a very remote place called marker name that is in south wall, where the people go into three different places. And they bring beetle nut Eric and nut trees, they cut and they bring which they you know, they put into the ground, right? And then they have people who are climbing that and other people are throwing fire on them. The shady means you know, the dry down, okay, they make the light air to that and they literally throw that fire onto the people. You know, we got a very important festival and a very famous festival called The Rise Ultra where there is fire walking in Chittagong. Yes, if you see there are about 20 25,000 people who walk on the fire and other fire walking is there in Shoreham almost about eight to 10 inches thick of burning embers and they tell you fold your pants, Don't cover your head and walk on that. What really shocked me was I have found elderly people with children in their arms running over the fire Museum. You know, when when we see all this particular thing. One message that comes out of this is that our ancestors were very smart. They introduced the various festivals like the firewalking and then we have our tuition, Jeff, is there a pH Fs so many of them to tell us that At fire is our friend. It doesn't do any damage. Use it. Don't abuse it.
Clyde D'Souza 10:06
Right. Yeah, it's quite a fascinating thing that even after, you know, centuries of rule of Portuguese and everything, yeah, the people from Guada natives, they just managed to stick together. And I like the way that you've connected all the festivals with, with there is some nature aspect, whether it's fire or water to that is there is so you know, so very much out of all the celebrations. And I think another statement that you made, which again, is shocking, and I love your shocking statements, because they don't, you know, catch your imagination. So the statement you made is 99% of guns are unaware of 99% of Go. Yes, yes. So you don't just stop there. But you do take the initiative to change that. And I think you've done that with hands on historians, right? Yes. So my question to you is that do you think that hands on historians and a program like hands on historian should be made mandatory, maybe for children in going schools, or even as an official program of the guar tourism activity?
11:02
The point here is, at this stage, I would not like to blame anybody for not knowing go though I have made that statement. 20 years back, and I still remember that seminar at the Museum of Krishna Didier Santa Monica, where we had, yeah, somebody asked me this question, is that statistic still standing. And there, I had to make a statement to him that I may have to change, that today, almost about 30% to 35% of goons are making an attempt to understand what is going on. I, I would like to point a finger to the education system that we have, at no point in our entire education system that is from the primary to the college section, are we bonded with our own land? You know, they are not taking them to certain places for a picnic for an outing, but that has got heritage value. Now how do we expect our own children to know anything about God, because the parents have not told them that they are too busy either working or they are getting their children to study. But nobody has ever made an attempt to tell goons about go and that is why I started these hands on historian. See, I'm a botanist by education. I'm a BSc botany graduate. And for me, the passion part of it is trying to understand the heritage and take it to the people. My attempt, as of today, I have done over 280 to 300 institutions that include schools, without charging them anything, I have given them two and a half hour to three hours presentations about go and I can tell you that our present generation is hungry to understand what is go. And from the education point of view. I 100% agree with you that yes, this must be made very mandatory for all the children to first understand their land, it must be made part of the tourism industry.
Clyde D'Souza 13:12
Exactly. No. And I think what you do so beautifully, is you know, the way that you present all your videos and your abs, it's not just educational, but it's entertaining and I think that is something that you have understood and that's what makes you such a good you know, person and a magnetic kind of personality who you you don't mind listening to for hours on end. And and really the kind of research and the way that you meet people. So for example, I remember watching this video where you go and you talk to the person who has this hero stone in his house outside his house, right? Yes, it's a person who was an MLA in Panjim or something, right? If I'm not mistaken, Isidore? Fernandez. Yes, it's Mrs. Raul Fernandez and his wife. So when I see all have these videos, and it's all these really small stories that you pick up and you go into such in depth, you know, with them, it really kind of enlightens you about okay, this even though was the smallest state in India, it is perhaps, I don't know, like you've mentioned somewhere else, you said you will probably require two lifetimes to kind of experience all of it. Yes. Right. So now the other question that I have for you, you were someone who has been on GWAS Tourism Board Committee, and like you rightly said, the footfalls of tourists and go about five times the native population itself. Yes. What would you think is perhaps the right direction that the Goa tourism needs to take to kind of make it something that's sustainable? And interesting, not just for guns, but also for tourists? Okay, Claire,
14:37
I'm going to answer this in a little different way. Sure. A few months back, I was invited to have a webinar on job opportunities in Goa. Okay. And this was, you know, by by an established educational institution, and they wanted me to have a talk. I look at Goa and it's V various various occupations that are there. Now, recently we have heard that only eight to 10% of cashew nuts are being produced over here in Goa rest comes from Nigeria and Kerala. Yeah, we are promoting them as gone and cashew nuts not that is not the way in principle that I should sell something with a false identity on that right? We have got so many handicrafts in Guam, we need through tourism to promote them tourism department is one department we have got handicraft department we have our until and unless all these people get together and say okay, this is what we will do. Right now we are heading for something what I have identified as ecotourism or hinterland tourism. To be very frank, I am totally against it. Not for the sake that I don't want hinterland tourism. I want hinterland tourism but I'm totally against it. Because if today we open our hinterlands our virgin lands, with beautiful culture, to the people whom I see, you know ravaging our coastline, then they will not waste time in trying to do the same thing and bring all the wastage and all over there. So until and unless our local people are empowered to take care of what is happening there to generate employment, through guiding through, you know, providing food to the people who are visiting, we should not even look at any things, you know, for sure that the Govan richness is not going to get polluted, please do not try to promote Goa as a tourism destination, not the whole of it.
Clyde D'Souza 16:47
Okay, well, yeah, I think that's a very, very well, nicely actionable point that you have that you have put, which is I mean, it's a quite a difficult answer. And I think you have kind of tried to give a good action point, which is basically get the locals involved in whatever it is, and then only bringing the tourists. Yeah, another question, which might be a little bit of a tricky one. But I want to because yeah, I would pick your mind on it. So now, do you think for example, I don't know about other countries and other cities, which you know, are tourist cities, let's say? Or do you think that maybe the authorities need to mandate, you know, certain businesses or maybe put certain rules? So for example, I don't know what your thoughts are on the casinos on the mandovi. Should should it be? Should there be a rule that we should say, Okay, this is not what we want, although it's a big, I know, it's a big diamond mind and a minor generating revenue source for for the state. But do you think that there are good best tourism design practices that you think should be implemented?
17:42
Anything to do with vices should not be brought inside the tourism arena? I am totally against the casinos. First of all, I think that they have circumvented the laws and the English, you know, vocabulary by saying that they are offshore casinos, they are not offshore casinos ashore is on the sea. And this is a river bank, they are off the river bank casinos there. So today when they have got permission to work as offshore casino, they should not be allowed to come inside a river. Right? This was the first blunder that whoever were there have made? Is there a need for these people? No, is because today, a whole package of God that we call an ask this question. Why are people coming to go? We didn't have casinos earlier. But then also we had people coming in to go yes, we have casinos now. A little more people are coming to go but casinos are not the lifesavers for Booyah. The fact is, we have failed at all levels. We have never considered or never asked that question. What is it that people want to do in Guam seen a person who is in USA is not going to come in to go out to eat hamburger here. I should be able to give him something from my side. So we have not identified our bone thing. I used to have a big problem when people ask me where can I get go and food that could be good only in small bars are not there on the menu that you know when you say that 70% of the people who are coming to Goa are vegans or vegetarians? Tell me how many of our local vegetables are, you know used in five star hotel first or any other hotels that would have helped my farmers also to go? Yes, true. There are children who are looking to go abroad because there is no work over here. They would have found some fallow land somewhere and cultivated English vegetables and given it to the hotels. But no it's not happening. So we have to first understand priceless assets that we have in Guam and try and highlight those rather than what he called depend on those guys called SK Zenos
Clyde D'Souza 19:59
right now Oh, great. Yeah, I'm glad that you've, you know, have such a hard point on it. And what do you think should be like a good tourism practice that maybe you would like to see implemented for the state?
20:10
First, we should try an upgrade our knowledge about God. And in fact, I got a very, very shocking What do you call explanation that was given to some theories as to why the you know, the relics or the body of St. Francis Xavier is brought down every 10 years. Now, we all know that is for veneration purpose that is for people to get a closer glimpse, yes, but this guide told a busload of people who may have taken over there that he is a living saint his hair grows and nails grow to cut it they bring it down. Oh my God, not tell me is that the right way of portraying or go? I don't blame that guide. Because we have got a World Heritage Site. We have got a wonderful place called an old warrior, but tempered among A cian Shanta, Durga, we have got so many of them. But there is not a single place where a tourist can go and pick up a brochure to read about the authentic history of that place. We don't have it. So until and unless people have the knowledge about their own land. And the authentic history is what he called made available to them, our tourism is going to be in a bad shape. So the first thing is that knowledge of the land has to be percolated in, it's palatable to the people. And number two is our infrastructure needs to be improved. Now, guys, if I take you and your family to a nice trail called as a netravati, Heritage Trail, about 70 kilometers from here, and tomorrow, if some lady in the group asked me, I would like to go to the washroom, I have to very openly tell please go behind the bush now how can I market my go to people and upgrade myself to a higher level by telling people to go behind the bush? No way. There is that entrance. So education is very, very much important to answer your question. And the second thing is that the infrastructure must be upgraded to international standards, or at least two basic standards.
Clyde D'Souza 22:16
Right? Yeah. Again, I think the you have given two very good actionable points. Oh, what do you think about you know, the young generation and all these influencers who are all over on Instagram, they are taking photographs of beaches, and sometimes they're even going into the hinterlands and all of that. What is your message to them but on the positive side, what can they do to kind of improve the situation?
22:36
I must say a huge thank you to them or in company how we would say they were a hero because in you know, this is something that is very important. In Konkani. We don't have a word for Thank you. Correct. We say the over a guru that is you know, you are very passionately saying May God bless you. I'm sure that you know there are hundreds of people lakhs of people who have come they can mighty billion photographs of this land of ours and they have gone back. If they go to here what around 40 beaches, you know from North Goa from carry on top to theory about the down or Raja down. We have got so on 30 to 40 beaches on top. People go down there. They take photographs of that particular place. They go home, they love it, they show their friends that they have been on the beach, but after a year, when they look at those photographs, they don't know which beach they were on. Right. The point here is when I take a selfie when I take a selfie it should not be on the dangerous wall of Ford Aguada to say that I was standing over there. If they had to have some similar signage, you know as an entrance, at least when they take the photograph they will know that they are in that particular place. Right. So see most of the photographs that are there are not tagged they are not having a tagline of you know what that place is? Recently now there is a there is a photograph and there is a clip going around about a stone that is outside the symmetry of santenay church. You know it's been lying there for maybe hundreds of I don't know maybe 100 years, maybe less, maybe more I don't know. But it has got carvings on the side on this first and second of November. Because it is also All Saints Day also say they paint the cemetery white and they paint this also white. A few days later. There is Tulsi Laguna so people come and they put that thing inside and they say it is a Tulsi I am totally against this. And this has been it this is being circulated by by not a go on team but looks like a tour operator from outside. He's trying to hype things out right now that is not a see you know It has nothing to do with any direct religious thing. It looks until unless a study is done. That has to be well identified first. And then you say what it is? Because it's just what do you call as a base of a pillar? According to me? Correct. Now, all this has happened, because people have taken photographs of that added or whatever they feel it was and circulated and things have gone haywire. So I am thankful to those people who are putting so many photographs of go making go look very beautiful. But at the same time, you know, they should not distort the history also. Yeah, I don't know whether it is positive or negative, but I classify it as a critically positive thing.
Clyde D'Souza 25:42
Yeah, my next segment is basically the user round, which is basically like a rapid fire. Right, where I asked you like a few very rapid fire questions, and you have to give one word answers or like a one line answer. Yeah. So all right. Okay. So guys in their smallest state, and you have said that you need two lifetimes to experience all that Google has to offer. But what are the three things that you would suggest someone do completely?
26:07
Number one, eat our own food? Yeah. Number two, go to the hinterlands and breed the fantastically pure air of Goa. And third, try and be like a bone when you come to go.
Clyde D'Souza 26:21
Very nice. Okay, one of the ways I think, you know, to fall in love with the place is through its food. So for you, what is your favorite growing food?
26:30
I love bronze, bronze, the way that my wife cooks, you know,
Clyde D'Souza 26:34
Oh, lovely. In what what curry? Would that be? Oh, wow, she
26:37
has got a family secret. Oh, lovely.
Clyde D'Souza 26:40
So is it spicy? Or is it like mildly spicy or sweet, spicy Spicy, will be let it be a family secret? Yeah, but I can just imagine and maybe we can all try and concocted? Yes, please. Okay, now one of your hobbies that you've said is angling. Yes. And it's something that I noticed a lot of locals doing on the banks of small rivers are on top of bridges. Now where is your favorite spot to go fishing? Done apologetic? Nice. Again, another way to fall in love with the with the place or to people or its culture is to try and understand their language and to try and understand their phrases and the terms. So what's your favorite golden phrase or
27:14
term? Go and phrase the overall issue? Okay,
Clyde D'Souza 27:17
and can you translate that for our listeners?
27:20
They weren't saying Have a good day. I mean, that's what we all wish for everybody to have.
Clyde D'Souza 27:24
Yes. Okay. So now my last question to you on the rapid fire round is that you know, right now, there are three generations that we are seeing about GWA. One is the generation that was there, which was part of the Portuguese gua, then this is a second generation that lived through both the Portuguese as well as the Indian goer. And now there is a third generation which is very young children who are only living in completely Indian GWA in a completely new age. And in all of this, you have seen particularly gua as a cigar that we knew that a lot of people knew when they loved and then cigar became something else, which is, you know, lazy and all of those slightly negative terms. But what would you say brings two cigars to you? And what would you say should be the idea of cigar?
28:09
This is a fantastic question that you've asked me because that word is to say God has been distorted, corrupted and used in a way that it should not be used, agreed, at no point have any vocabulary that I know of, does say that the means laid back or lazy? It is a word that defines a bone 100%. Now, what do you mean by say, God is contented with what you have a not have a grid for more go ones have always been very happy with what they have. They get their three meals a day, small, sweet if some people are having that, and good relations with people. This is the meaning of society being contented and not striving more than what you need. They are happy with what they have. And you talked about three generations. I call myself transit generation because I was born as a Portuguese citizen, and naturalized as a Indian. I was born in the year 1960. That is about a year and three months before the liberation. There were those people who lived the entire life in the Portuguese era. And those people have seen certain things that happened over here. Okay, there were certain things that did not happen the way it should have happened. And it led to a lot of skirmishes over here, or subtle Grace over here. But the lifestyle of the people earlier was 100% suicide God then came to my generation, we had the opportunity to have our own people to decide our future. Now, yes, the generation that has come later on is doing a lot of what eco jugglery when it comes to, you know, trying to enforce that freedom that we had to select people, it is time, it is time that we understand the goodness of the era that has gone by that is before liberation. And we have to see where we are today.
Clyde D'Souza 30:21
Right? No, I think I think very well put. And I think now from 1962, to 2020 22, we are at 2022 now and you have been tirelessly, you know, working at maybe instilling that, that safeguard in not only the generations of the past, but even the generations of the present. And I think that what you said rightly is that the next generation can maybe just armed themselves with the knowledge and then hopefully the officials will bring in the infrastructure and then go back and be the Sega that we all want it to be. That's right. So yeah, so Mr. Sanjeev this has been an excellent enlightening conversation with you as usual and I could listen to you for many hours and hopefully we will do this again thank you for helping guns and the lovers of Guam know more about GWA one percentage at a time and I think that percentage of people who are getting to know Guam or is increasing thanks to you and I thank you for being on a sec got stories from go up podcast I hope you had a good time and hopefully you will come back again. Thank you and Moga su
31:18
definitely thank you so much Clyde and your team you are doing an amazing job because every every bit of effort to bring governess into go is needed and for that I thank you very much
Clyde D'Souza 31:33
hope you enjoyed this episode of say God stories from go out don't forget to rate review and follow this podcast. This is great saying bye for now follow me on Instagram at Clyde D'souza author or buy my books to say God the going out of content. For more go and stories, recipes and a whole lot more. This podcast is brought to you by bound a company that helps you grow through stories follow them at bound India on all social platforms for updates on this podcast or take a look at their other awesome podcast nagasu and see you soon